Dinosaurs in the Bible? (Part 3)

Evidence of dinosaur-human co-existence?

Regarding the evidences that they co-existed with humanity, there are several Achilles heels. There are claims of the Immense Collection of Strange Acambaro Figurines as Evidence of Dinosaurs Living Among Us. Most archaeologists have dismissed them as fakes because thermoluminescence studies and analysis of the artifacts’ surfaces reveal a very recent age. But these studies have not stopped those who are outside of the archaeological mainstream who have other ideas about the figurines’ origins.[i]

Some important considerations:

There are also no written accounts or oral traditions which speak of dinosaur-like creatures living in the area. It seems that if they were common enough for thousands of figures to be produced depicting them, the giant beasts would also show up more often in local traditions - just like jaguars and butterflies do.
In 1952, American archaeologist Charles Di Peso examined the artifacts and found that their surfaces showed no signs of weathering or collecting dirt in the cracks (that would have suggested that they were thousands of years old.) He used these observations to conclude that the figurines were not ancient. He also asserted that the family which had originally provided the figurines to Julsrud had been making them for a peso per item. Furthermore, the figurines resembled creatures and characters that the family may have seen in films at an Acámbaro cinema or from reading comic books available at a museum in a larger city nearby. These findings cast doubt on the authenticity of the artifacts.
Thermoluminescence dating was also used on some figurines between 1969 and 1972. The analysis produced a date of about 4500 years B.P. (Before Present) placing the age of the artifacts around 2500 BC. Believers proclaimed this information as evidence for their authenticity. However, further studies in 1976 and 1978 revealed that the old date was erroneous and that the figurines did not meet the temperature conditions required for reliable thermoluminescence dating. The dates that could be attained revealed that the objects were from the late 1930s or early 1940s - shortly before they were “discovered”.
Another issue is that even if they are genuine, it is not clear that they are in fact depicting dinosaurs. For example, many of the figurines which are said to represent dinosaurs only have two legs - not the four legs that are normally associated with specific creatures. Some archaeologists have suggested that, if they are genuine, they might actually depict stylized non-saurian animals, or mythical monsters instead.
It is possible that humans and dinosaurs did coexist, but this finding does not appear to be evidence supporting it. Even the prominent young earth creationist organization, Answers in Genesis, which would be very interested in any evidence for dinosaurs and humans coexisting has stated that this is probably a hoax.[ii] They acknowledges that there are no convincing remains of dinosaurs found with humans or any other large modern mammal.

Further challenges to Dinosaur claim from http://paleo.cc/paluxy/behemoth.htm site:

In regards to verse 15, the Hebrew word for grasses apparently does refer to actual grasses and possibly other low-lying vegetation--not rough shrubs and trees, which were evidently the main food of sauropods, judging by their teeth and other features. Moreover, no clear fossil evidence of grasses even exists in the Jurassic, when most sauropods lived (although some continued into the Cretaceous).
Ancient Egyptians referred to the hippopotamus as the "water-ox." According to Wikipedia, the Russian meaning of behemoth is "hippopotamus."
YECs often emphasize verse 17, "He moveth his tail like a cedar", arguing that sauropods have very large tails, whereas hippos and elephants have relatively small tails. However, the passage does not say that the tail was like a cedar tree in size, only in movement. In this regard, the verse might well be referring to the movement of a cedar branch or switch, not the whole tree.
Also, important, but almost never mentioned by YECs, is that the Hebrew word usually translated as "tail" here can also refer to other appendages of an animal, including a trunk. In fact, as uncomfortable as it may be to some, the word can and sometimes was used in ancient Hebrew to refer euphemistically to a large penis. Scholars favoring this interpretation here note that a hippo and elephant each have a penis that when erect, extends several feet in length, and that the term for "move" can also mean "extend."
the Hebrew word for "stones" here can refer (as even in casual English today) to testicles rather than actual stones.
The entire passage can be figurative rather referring to real existence.
As evidence of the potentially broad and diverse use of the term "behemoth", note the following uses:

I will send against them the fangs of behemoth, the venom of vipers that glide in the dust. (Deut. 32:24 NIV)
When my heart was grieved and my spirit embittered, I was senseless and ignorant; I was behemoth before you. (Ps 73:21 NIV)
Here we seem to see at least one kind of "behemoth" that is potentially fearsome and aggressive. Note that hypos and elephants are both known to be aggressive when threatened or disturbed (with both having huge teeth/tusks that can inflict severe damage on any victim of their wrath), whereas sauropods had rows of small, peg-like teeth.

The meaning of verse 19 of Job 40 is uncertain, but also may emphasize the aggression or fierceness of the creature. This too might best fit the hippo, which is known to be the most dangerous animal in Africa, based on the number of human deaths each year.
Verse 20 seems to develop the picture of a largely aquatic animal, whose food is carried to him presumably in the water. Since sauropods were evidently primarily terrestrial, this verse seems to disfavor the sauropod interpretation, and favor a hippopotamus, or perhaps less strongly, an elephant.
Verses 21-22 suggest the animal could easily be shaded under shoreline trees or shrubs, which would be far more difficult for a large sauropod (the largest land animals that ever lived) than a hippo or elephant.
Verse 23, indicating that the beast "drinketh up a river," and "can draw up Jordan into his mouth" is yet another passage that seems to favor some creature other than a sauropod. Obviously, no animal can drink up a river literally, but a hippo with its great mouth agape would more inspire such an image than the relatively tiny head and mouth of a sauropod. An elephant gulping or suctioning and then spraying out a fountain of water might also inspire such a metaphor.
In conclusion, when all linguistic aspects of the passages and anatomic aspects of the candidate animals are considered, Job 40 seems more compatible with a hippo or elephant (more so the former) than a sauropod dinosaur.
Indeed, the passages Job 41 in question include few specific anatomic features, and generally depict a fire-breathing marine creature, for which there is no plausible evidence.
If the passages in question do refer to any actual animal, a large crocodilian (living or extinct) would fit the poetic descriptions as readily as any extinct saurian. The suggestion by some YECs that the leviathan in Job may be a Tyrannosaurus rex seems especially weak in that the verses (reproduced below) depict a sea creature, whereas T. rex was largely if not entirely terrestrial.
Moreover, the idea that dinosaurs existed with humans contrasts extensive geologic and paleontological evidence, including the absence of any convincing humans remains (or those of any other large modern mammal) with dinosaurs, or even at the same geologic horizons--which stands in sharp contrast to the YEC assertion that all such animals were living at the same time only a few thousand years ago.

Institute for Biblical and scientific studies mention[iii]:

There seems to be a similar animal in a Ugaritic text BH called ëgl il ëtk meaning "the ferocious bullock of El" (Pope 1965, 321; KTU 1.3 III 44). Another text describes an animal as having horns like bulls, humps like buffalo, and the face of Baal (Ibid; KTU 1.12 I 30-33). This beast may be the same as the Sumerian and Akkadian "bull of heaven" who was slain by Gilgamesh and Enkidu in the Gilgamesh Epic (Ibid., 322; ANET, 83-85; Heidel 1946, 53-55)
The description in Job 40:21-23 seems to allude to the area around Lake Huleh which was filled with buffalo. His tail is like a cedar branch that can easily bend or sway. This does not mean his tail was as long as or as big as a huge cedar tree for verses 21-23 say, "Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh. The lotus conceals him in their shadow" (NIV). Reeds and lotus cannot hide a huge dinosaur.
The "thick of his tail" does not mean a dinosaur’s big tail, but the tassel at the end of its tail. The Akkadian is ku-bur zib-ba-ti-su, meaning "thickness of his tail" (ANET, 505). "It refers to the tassele at the end of the tail in contrast to the thin middle part" (Ibid., note 29). The horns of the bull are plated with lapis two inches thick, weighing thirty pounds, and holding 105 gallons each (Heidel, 55). This was a huge mythical bull which is associated with the constellation Taurus, the bull (Black and Green, 49).
In the Old Testament the KJV uses the term "dragon" for the Hebrew words tannim meaning "jackals" and tannin meaning "serpent, or sea monster" (BDB, 1072; Gesenius, 868-9). It seems the KJV mistranslated these two separate words. Tannim is from the root tan meaning "to howl" and tannin is from the root tanan "to smoke" (Ibid.). Jackels are known for their howling, and are associated with desolate areas. Tannin or "smokers" probably came from seeing the spouts of whales or the snorting of animals which looked like smoke coming from a fire inside. Our warm breathe in winter looks like smoke. This is probably how the idea of fire-breathing dragons started. The Hebrew is not referring to any dinosaurs.
The Greek word for "dragon" means "serpent" not dinosaur. In Babylon they worshipped the god Nina in the form of a serpent (IBSE, Vol.1, 428-9). A number of monsters in ancient times were the results of finding fossil bones.
Job 41:1 says, "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook" (NIV). This whole chapter describes this terrible sea creature probably a giant crocodile. It is said to have a tongue (verse 1), a nose and jaw (v.2), limbs (v.12), mouth ringed with fearsome teeth (v.14), and a back tightly fitted with scales (v.15). It describes smoke coming from his nostrils. This is poetic language and is probably like seeing our breathe which looks like smoke in cold weather. There is a similar description of God coming in a thunderstorm in Psalm 18:8. Bartram observed an alligator "that as it comes on the land a thick smoke issues from its distended nostrils with a thundering sound. This thick, hot steam, according to credible description which is presented here, produces the impression of a fire exiting beneath, and bursting forth" (Delitzsch 1976, 374). The sneezing of fine water particles in the sun spreads light. Eyes of animals at night can shine or glow. The crocodile’s eyes and eyelids glow red under water like the red at dawn or dusk. It is not talking about real fire coming out of its mouth. This is poetic language (See Revelation 19:12, and Daniel 10:6). In the Dead Sea Scrolls 11Q10 a targum of Job translates leviathan as "Crocodile" (Martinez 1994, 152).
It seems that the word "leviathan" is a general term for any large sea animal. In Job 41 it clearly has one head, but in Psalm 74 it has many heads, probably a giant squid. In the Book of Revelation 13:1 the beast arising from the sea has seven heads. This seems to be alluding to the leviathan of seven heads tradition.
Regarding the foot prints of both dinosaur and human found together, the peculiar bold claim has been refuted by deeper exploration. They were found to be dinosaur tracks not human footprints. Erosion and back fill made some of them look human. Even Dr. Hugh Ross agrees with this.[iv]

Next, Ben Stanhope, who is author of book ‘(Mis)interpreting Genesis: How the Creation Museum Misunderstands the Ancient Near Eastern Context of the Bible’[v], possess a degree from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary where he served as a Garrett Fellow, and an M.A. in Manuscript Cultures from Hamburg University in Germany. His research thesis explored Egyptian iconography on papyrus seals of the biblical royal court. He has his own You Tube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOq_6_nZwTxqfZK__dnjwSQ/featured

For his research papers: https://independent.academia.edu/BenStanhope

Inspiring Philosophy, one of the strongest defenders of the Biblical faith, has also invited him to discuss about awaited book: https://youtu.be/yzAs3fWInFo

What he has to say on Behemoth and Leviathan?

Leviathan[vi]:

As anyone who has had first semester Hebrew will tell you, it turns out, grammatically, Psalms 74:14 is indisputably describing a single creature with multiple heads. It is describing a Hydra.
Why is it significant that we have a biblical text that speaks of Leviathan as multi-headed? Because the Israelites weren’t the only people group in the surrounding lands of the ancient Near East who described the dragon in this way. Leviathan was also spoken of on ancient stone tablets written by another civilization north of Israel in Syria.
If taken literally, the available descriptions of Leviathan are contradictory. Therefore, it is clear that Psalm 74 and also Isaiah 27 are probably speaking in literary and symbolic terms, not narrating the ancient equivalent of a National Geographic special.
Leviathan has parallel with Chaos dragon of Babylonian religion. In Psalms 74, it is theologically establishing the supremacy of God of the Bible over pagan gods, kingship over creation and deserves worship.
Leviathan is a personification of the watery chaos that ever threatens the created order.
In Job 41, Leviathan’s placement at the end of a list of natural animals emphasizes the fact that the author has progressed from praising God by describing his dominion over natural animals in creation to praising God by describing his dominion over a Near Eastern stock motif of natural chaos itself.

His own conclusion:

In summation, the evidence that Leviathan is not a Jurassic Park escapee includes the following:

In Psalm 74, God’s defeat of Leviathan precedes the creation of the world. If literal, this would contradict the creation account in Genesis 1.
Isaiah says Leviathan will be killed again at the eschaton. (What? Is there a surviving Liopleurodon out there in the Atlantic that God is going to give a knuckle sandwich at the eschaton?)
He has the cognate titles of an earlier Near Eastern chaos dragon (and however old you think Job is, it’s obvious that Job’s allusions to figures like Yam and Rahab reference earlier known Semitic dragon motifs).
In addition to breathing fire in Job 41(!), in Psalm 74, Leviathan has multiple heads (undoubtedly seven like his Ugaritic counterpart). There are no seven-headed reptiles in the fossil record.

Behemoth[vii]:

The etymology of the word itself is build around a Hebrew word frequently used for cattle- ‘Behema’. The linguistics of Job 40 has been suggested as ‘Super Ox’.
There is nothing in the passage to describe the beast as reptilian.
The morphology of largest ever known dinosaur family such as Sauropod doesn’t fit with the description.
Regarding the issue of tail, poetic parallelism, verb supports, cannonation and post Biblical usage refer it as something related with reproductive anatomy.
The animal is recognized to be a divine bullock when comparing with nearby cultural texts parallelism. It has been said to be personification of animal kingdom or perhaps whole terrestrial realm itself.
The passage is just trying to teach God’s dominion over cosmic order and man’s weakness by comparison.

All these analyses come to one focal point that these beasts aren’t meant to be dinosaurs. However, typical Christians are uncomfortable with dinosaur’s extinction before humanity’s advent. They find it more reasonable to believe that many dinosaurs got destroyed during catastrophic globalized flood.

If we are to believe that these mighty beasts really got vanished millions of years ago then what we can do with ‘Death before the Fall’ dilemma? YEC’s one of the major positions is that death didn’t even play into its effect until the fall. They use Romans 5:12.

[i] https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/immense-collection-strange-acambaro-figurines-evidence-dinosaurs-living-021137 7/20/2021, 7:46 am

[ii] http://paleo.cc/paluxy/behemoth.htm

[iii] https://www.bibleandscience.com/science/dinosaurs.htm and https://www.bibleandscience.com/science/footprints.htm 7/20/2021, 9:35 am

[iv] https://youtu.be/enRtNud5ReM, 7/20/2021, 10:27 am